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Thread: Schroth 2010

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    Senior Member mamamax's Avatar
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    Default Schroth 2010

    [replacer_a] (Weiss, Goodal, 2010) available in English, Spanish & French

    Latest developments


    The change from the classical 'teacher / pupil' setting to modern concepts of learning seem to allow a reduction of total training time of in-patient scoliosis rehabilitation to 14 days or even less, without reducing the effectiveness of treatment (Weiss et al. 2006a). The role of the physical therapist changes from being that of a teacher to a supervisor, who acts as a catalyser to empower the active role of the patients and to foster the ability of the patients to develop their individual treatment protocol by themselves via experiential learning.


    This new concept called 'Integrated Scoliosis Rehabilitation (ISR)' is currently applied (Weiss 2007a) at the first few centres. 'Integrated' is used to describe the teamwork of all professionals 'acting as one'. The physician, physical therapist and (where available) psychologist are integrated in each others' work and are acting together in synchronicity in the diagnosis and treatment.


    The limitation of this concept is that it is restricted to patients where scoliosis is the major problem. Patients with neuromuscular scoliosis and patients with a significant reduction of learning capability cannot be included in this treatment. The majority of the scoliotic population however, patients with idiopathic scoliosis (80 – 90% of all scoliosis) can easily be treated using the ISR - approach.


    As has been shown, Scoliosis Intensive Rehabilitation (SIR), in its original form can no more be regarded as being effective when rehabilitation times have been reduced to 3-4 weeks, only (Weiss and Goodall 2009). The incidence of surgery for the patients receiving this in-patient program (Weiss, Weiss and Schaar 2003) is comparable to out-patient approaches (Maruyama et al. 2003, Rigo, Reiter and Weiss 2003), although the different studies have patient samples which are not necessarily comparable. The development of such research means that more intensive out-patient approaches seem more appropriate when one considers; time efficiency and new teaching approaches including experiential learning (ISR), as described within the book on "Best Practice" treatment (Weiss 2007a). Therefore an in-patient program, such as SIR is today regarded as outdated. Actually three day intensive programs based on the "experiential learning" approach of ISR are provided in the US, UK and in Germany at the first authors centre.

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    Last edited by Dr Kalla; 07-08-2010 at 02:03 AM.
    Idiopathic, from the Latin meaning: we're idiots 'cause we can't figure out what's causing it (Dr. Gregory House, MD)

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    Registered Member Reira's Avatar
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    Hi mamamax,

    this developement and the new statements of Dr. Weiß are currently very very very disputed in Germany!
    You have to consider, for years Dr. Weiß has preached, that SIR is the "gold standard". As soon as he got fired he preachs that 3!!! days are enough to learn Schroth and a in-patient-rehabilitation isn´t necessary anymore. Sorry, but this is impossible, Schroth is very complex and needs intensive practice! Now he claims, that Schroth is only necessary, if the curve is bigger than 35°!!!

    Conclusion: As an patient you have to go to the bottom of the things!!

    Best wishes, Reira


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    Senior Member mamamax's Avatar
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    Hi Reira - I don't know what all happened there at the clinic with Dr. Weiss, it seems to be a well kept secret. I do know "firing" is not always the fault of the one fired, in all cases. I also understand the family has retired from the clinic. And that is about all I know regarding the situation.

    Beyond that, I also understand that for the last decade, Dr. Weiss has overseen the treatment of approximately 3,000 patients a year. I suppose he knows something. If you read his entire article found here: http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...054#post103054 I believe the 3-7 days is in regards to PT training and that patient orientation is more like two weeks, but that in most cases patients do not require an in-patient program. I have been in contact with a PT in California that has been schooled in both the old and the new Schroth directly by Dr. Weiss and Christina. She seems to have no problem with this, and enjoys a thriving practice. So ...I'm not sure what the feeling is in Germany, but bottom line is patients receiving the tools we need to improve our quality of life. It would appear that Dr. Weiss offers a way to do this on a scale that will benefit patients who are not able to travel to Germany. Good in my book.

    Would be very interested in your thoughts after reading the entire article with a cool head. I do understand the emotional ties that one would naturally have to the clinic, and any change that may occur. Still, I think Dr. Weiss is on to something and for all of us, the bottom line is receiving the tools we need to improve our quality of life. I look forward to your further thoughts.


    Last edited by Dr Kalla; 07-08-2010 at 02:04 AM.
    Idiopathic, from the Latin meaning: we're idiots 'cause we can't figure out what's causing it (Dr. Gregory House, MD)

    bty - I'm not weird, I'm just a little multi-factorial

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    Default Schroth 2010

    There seems to be some trouble editing my first posting. Here is the correct web link:

    Full Text Article (Weiss, Goodal, 2010) available in English, Spanish & French:


    Idiopathic, from the Latin meaning: we're idiots 'cause we can't figure out what's causing it (Dr. Gregory House, MD)

    bty - I'm not weird, I'm just a little multi-factorial

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    Registered Member Reira's Avatar
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    Hi mamamax,

    I do know "firing" is not always the fault of the one fired, in all cases.
    I don´t know the reason for firing, but I know some rumors. I also know some patients-experiences of Dr. Weiß.

    I don´t want to say, that Dr. Weiß isn´t a specialist in scoliosis, but he often changes his opinions and I don´t know if this is always the best for patients.

    Beyond that, I also understand that for the last decade, Dr. Weiss has overseen the treatment of approximately 3,000 patients a year.
    If you went to an in-patient-rehabilitation program to his old clinic then as a patient you haven´t seen Dr. Weiß as an doctor. He only checked the braces which weren´t made from the clinic-orthotist. A normal patient only saw him at the initial hellos at the beginning of the program. But nevertheless he has much experience with scoliosis but this has nothing to do with his newest developement of "Schroth-light".

    I believe the 3-7 days is in regards to PT training and that patient orientation is more like two weeks
    I only know the German program of this Short-Time-Thing and this are only 3 days on which only on the third day Schroth is trained. You couldn´t learn Schroth on only one day, never, that´s absolutely impossible.

    but that in most cases patients do not require an in-patient program
    I don´t believe so. Patients looking forward to their next staying there. The teenies are crying that they have to leave (and have to go back to school ) and arrange dates for their next staying together with their new friends they found in the clinic. We have an whole rubric in our Forum in which the only topic is, who is when in the clinic. They love it there!!

    I have been in contact with a PT in California that has been schooled in both the old and the new Schroth directly by Dr. Weiss and Christina.
    Perhaps we have to differentiate between two things. The Schroth-Therapists which have been schooled in the Clinic are only trained for patients after an in-patient-rehabilitation. Most of the german Schroth-Therapists know this and recommend their patients to go for an in-patient-rehabilitation firstly. In the US unfortunately this is not possible in the most cases because there is only one clinic as far as I know. Therefore the whole therapy has to be on a out-patient-base. If this leads to the same outcome, I don´t know but I think it´s not comparable.
    Now I think it wouldn´t be a wide difference if you replace one "older" out-patient-method with a newer one. But it would be a great difference if you replace a 3-6 weeks long in-patient-rehabilitation with a 3 days long program. And this is what Dr. Weiß recommends at the moment in Germany. He doesn´t recommend it additionaly to the in-patient-rehabilitation but in place ot it.

    Still, I think Dr. Weiss is on to something and for all of us, the bottom line is receiving the tools we need to improve our quality of life.
    The in-patient-rehabilitation never impair the quality of life, in almost all cases it improves it. I don´t know if you spoke to someone from the US who was at the german clinic, perhaps they could better explain the difference between out-patient-Schroth and in-patient-Schroth.

    It would appear that Dr. Weiss offers a way to do this on a scale that will benefit patients who are not able to travel to Germany.
    I don´t know why there aren´t more in-patient-programs around the world. Perhaps the new program will improve the possibilities for patients around the world. But will it be better or comparable to the very intensive in-patient-program? I don´t think so. It would be better if someone opens such intensive-treatment options in the US.
    All I know is, that a friend of Dr. Weiß offer the "new" Schroth in the US. But while reading the homepage, I think it´s an mix between the traditional method and the new method. The program also seems to be longer than the program Dr. Weiß recommends. Here´s the link: http://scoliosis3dc.com/

    There is also a in-patient-clinic in Londond. Here´s the link: http://www.scoliosis-treatment.scoli...m/courses.html The side has a whole rubric with results, it´s very impressive.

    Best wishes, Reira


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    Senior Member mamamax's Avatar
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    Thank you Reira - your sincere comments and thoughts, as always, important to me as a patient. Patient orientation, in any type of physical therapy, is of course vital to success or failure. From what has been said of the clinic in Germany, I must say it has always been something I wished I could experience.

    I was reading Dr Moramarco's web page
    http://scoliosis3dc.com/ Thank you for that reference. He is not the one I previously spoke of. I was a little surprised to see him advertise himself as the: 1st U.S. Physician to be Schroth Certified for Scoliosis Treatment at The Asklepios Katharina Schroth Clinic, as the term physician is usually reserved for medical doctors vs chiropractors, in this country. I'm glad his daughter was apparently able to find some much needed help using Schroth - but I do think he should reconsider that line on his web page, so as to not be misleading. The fact that the line appears on his web page, does rather put me off.

    I find myself wondering why any medical director of an in-patient clinic would consider changing the program from several weeks, to something much shorter. Some thoughts on that: (1) economic concerns (2) improved income/cost ratios or (3) long term analysis of the program which shows that streamlining is both cost effective, while not compromising patient care or clinical outcome and further accomplishing the professional training of others in a timely manner. Again, just pondering, I have no special inside knowledge. In the course of this clinic's operation over 35 years, it is possible these factors have always played a role in operations - given, the state of the world economy ... another unavoidable fatality, if operations are to remain open?


    If this "new" Schroth, also termed I believe - Power Schroth, can be incorporated into hospital affiliated Physical Therapy departments in the U.S., both surgical and non surgical scoliosis patients stand to gain a great deal - in terms of improving quality of life, and financial assistance via insurance. I do think that perhaps shorter training periods of the professionals involved, finds the propensity to loose something without benefit of hands on observation in a clinical setting. Those already trained in the older method perhaps would have no trouble making the transition - but what about those unfamiliar altogether ... I can see where this *may* be a challenge, or problem - ultimately affecting the patient.


    Unfortunately, money and profit is the driving force behind so many things.


    Thank you again for your comments - food for thought!


    Idiopathic, from the Latin meaning: we're idiots 'cause we can't figure out what's causing it (Dr. Gregory House, MD)

    bty - I'm not weird, I'm just a little multi-factorial

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    Registered Member Reira's Avatar
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    Hi mamamax,

    I find myself wondering why any medical director of an in-patient clinic would consider changing the program from several weeks, to something much shorter
    I think that a another point may be considered - his ego

    I don´t know much about this Dr. Moramarco. I only know someone who meets him at the first Scoliosis-Workshop organized by Dr. Weiß. There he told, that his daughter also wears a brace from Dr. Weiß. All I could say is, that his homepage looks impressive to me. Is he a medical doctor? I don´t understand the US-System with Chiropractors. In Germany if a medical doctor does "chiropractic" than this doctor has an additionaly training and it is called chirotherapy, e.g. if you have a blockade. If a physiotherapist does "chiropractic" it is called chiropractic. It´s kind of confusing.

    Those already trained in the older method perhaps would have no trouble making the transition
    Frankly, I wouldn´t change a 3 weeks possibility to only a 3 days program. Schroth needs much training to do it correctly. There are always changes in your curvatures and that needs adaption. It´s such a difficult method, that you easily make failures and you need much training to internalize the right movements and "forget" the wrong movements. Furthermore you will have a time in which you only have you and your back in your head, no other problems. You have many people, whole generations around you. You could speak to patients who had to wear the milwauke-brace or a body-cast for years. Than you are really happy, if you "only" have to wear a Cheneau-Brace. For teenager it is highly motivating to meet another teenies with a brace. That are things you wouldn´t have if the program is only 3 days long.

    From what has been said of the clinic in Germany, I must say it has always been something I wished I could experience.
    If you ever have the possibility, than do it. It´s really great and always very international. I know that it costs about 120 Euro/day and that 2 weeks are the minimum time of staying. If I ever have enough money than I also would go to the US to undergo the Clear-Method.

    I don´t know much about the new health-insurance in the US. Does health-insurance pay for Schroth-treatment in the US?

    BTW - Do you know the new youtube-videos of Dr. Weiß? http://www.youtube.com/user/BibiDocW.../6/cOlHr7Xi9vc
    He has the opinion, that Spine-Cor in combination with Schroth leads to progression of the curvature! But I don´t know if he has plenty experience with Spine-Cor-treatment. The only country in which Spine-Cor is in use in Central-Europe is Switzerland and there - all I know - only for curvatures between 15 and 25°!

    Unfortunately, money and profit is the driving force behind so many things.
    Yes, it´s sad but true!

    Best wishes, Reira


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    Senior Member mamamax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reira View Post
    Hi mamamax,


    I think that a another point may be considered - his ego
    Does Dr. Weiss have a reputation? :-) I have met many medical professionals with "ego" the most egocentric one I ever met was a neurosurgeon who saved my life - so I let it slide, he did meet me however when I was in my 20's, when I traveled 100mph and was always right - so I gifted an attitude adjustment, which I think he never forgot.

    I don´t know much about this Dr. Moramarco. I only know someone who meets him at the first Scoliosis-Workshop organized by Dr. Weiß. There he told, that his daughter also wears a brace from Dr. Weiß. All I could say is, that his homepage looks impressive to me. Is he a medical doctor? I don´t understand the US-System with Chiropractors. In Germany if a medical doctor does "chiropractic" than this doctor has an additionaly training and it is called chirotherapy, e.g. if you have a blockade. If a physiotherapist does "chiropractic" it is called chiropractic. It´s kind of confusing.
    Here in the US, a physician is a medical doctor (MD) and someone who has graduated from medical school. MDs and Osteopaths (who do not perform surgery) are considered physicians, and able to write prescriptions - chiropractors are medical professionals but have not graduated from a medical college with a medical license, or title MD, and they are limited in that they can not write prescriptions. Some enjoy debate over the qualifications of chiropractors - but then, many MDs refer their patients to them .. go figure.


    Frankly, I wouldn´t change a 3 weeks possibility to only a 3 days program. Schroth needs much training to do it correctly. There are always changes in your curvatures and that needs adaption. It´s such a difficult method, that you easily make failures and you need much training to internalize the right movements and "forget" the wrong movements. Furthermore you will have a time in which you only have you and your back in your head, no other problems. You have many people, whole generations around you. You could speak to patients who had to wear the milwauke-brace or a body-cast for years. Than you are really happy, if you "only" have to wear a Cheneau-Brace. For teenager it is highly motivating to meet another teenies with a brace. That are things you wouldn´t have if the program is only 3 days long.
    For some reason, I had the idea that training (Power/New Schroth) was 3-7 days, under Weiss instruction, and patient orientation 2 weeks. Now if this is as good as it is being advertised - this makes the program ideal through hospital affiliated Physical Therapy departments for many reasons. Patients with insurance would receive treatment at no cost or at a very reduced cost of co-pay, which is $20-30 USD per session (approximately $200-300 USD for two weeks). A far better scenario than traveling out of state or out of country which most people simply cannot do for economic reasons.

    The initial set up would be best with surgical patients, when pain remains an issue, or with the aging population (like myself), who has gone largely untreated for most of their lives. Both needing tools to improve quality of life which I believe Schroth can provide.

    Once successfully implemented, then, bringing in the brace makers for the youngsters. All it would take is one hospital affiliated Physical Therapy department to do this successfully, and others would follow. Making care both affordable and available for far more than now exists.

    For those without insurance, ideally one day - free clinics. To tell the truth, that this does not yet currently exist - bothers me a great deal. Today, one must be quite wealthy to afford such a treatment - and I find that sad.


    I don´t know much about the new health-insurance in the US. Does health-insurance pay for Schroth-treatment in the US?
    I know not much about the new health care insurance in the US - that is, it does not yet effect me in any way, my insurance is through the company I work for and quite adequate outside of my need for a physical therapy based method of addressing my curvature pattern in a way that would improve the quality of my life. It is possible that my insurance would pay a percentage of the cost of the Wisconsin Clinic (if the Wisconsin Clinic accepted my insurance), and if my physician would write a prescription for it. The travel, cost of lodging, and time away from work however would make this prohibitive for me.

    BTW - Do you know the new youtube-videos of Dr. Weiß? http://www.youtube.com/user/BibiDocW.../6/cOlHr7Xi9vc
    He has the opinion, that Spine-Cor in combination with Schroth leads to progression of the curvature! But I don´t know if he has plenty experience with Spine-Cor-treatment. The only country in which Spine-Cor is in use in Central-Europe is Switzerland and there - all I know - only for curvatures between 15 and 25°!
    Yes, I am aware of the videos - nice music! I am also aware of, and have always been aware of, Dr. Weiss' opinion of Spinecor - his opinion very similar to Wong. We have debated this in forum before :-) He has a justifiable concern, and that is the compression component of the Spinecor brace. In fully Spinecor certified and experienced hands however, that component is not something for a patient to worry about. In in-experienced, or not fully certified hands - yes, a patient should be concerned. So he and I disagree on the use of Spinecor - ok with me ... I can look the other way given the wealth of experience he has in other areas.

    Can you tell us more about the distinction between a German School Chiropractor - and any other chiropractor. I always find the distinction curious.

    Best to you as well Reira :-)


    Idiopathic, from the Latin meaning: we're idiots 'cause we can't figure out what's causing it (Dr. Gregory House, MD)

    bty - I'm not weird, I'm just a little multi-factorial

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    In the quest to promote one's own product - a common strategy is to bash the competition. Since time out of mind.

    Are Heir Weiss and the Spinecor Corporation doing battle? Over the last few days Dr. Weiss has posted some anti-Spinecor videos:
    http://www.spinecorporation.com/Engl...mation/faq.htm

    While googling the other side of the story (Schroth failures), I found some interesting posting by the Spinecor Corporation, under Frequently Asked Questions:
    http://www.spinecorporation.com/Engl...mation/faq.htm
    Why other physiotherapy methods like Schroth are not recommended in combination with the SpineCor® brace? The SpineCor® Brace works as a postural re-education device, training the wearer by repetition of a curve specific Corrective Movement® to change their posture.

    The Corrective Movement® is a low impact rehabilitation exercise repeated tens of thousands of times a day whilst wearing the brace during normal activities of daily living.

    Over time, the Corrective Movements® are posture integrated, resulting in permanent stabilisation or improvement in the patient’s spinal curvature.

    ANY physical therapy exercises that are performed with the SpineCor® Brace MUST repeat the same movement strategy provided by the brace, repeating and amplifying the Corrective Movement®.

    A physical therapy program that is NOT TUNED to respect the SpineCor® curve specific Corrective Movement® will not have a positive effect and could even have a detrimental effect on the results of brace treatment.
    Proving once again to myself - that, no, we cannot all get along. Who suffers most from this - the patient, me thinks!

    Last edited by mamamax; 07-13-2010 at 11:12 AM.
    Idiopathic, from the Latin meaning: we're idiots 'cause we can't figure out what's causing it (Dr. Gregory House, MD)

    bty - I'm not weird, I'm just a little multi-factorial

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    Default I hate to interrupt, but.....

    Sorry for being a jerk, but I have to point something out.....

    So the Spine Corporation brace is relying on the spinal feedback mechanisms to "re-train the brain"? Hmm, sounds backwards to me. Doesn't the brain tell the muscles what to do automatically via the postural control centers in the hind brain?

    http://www.fixscoliosis.com/threads/...-for-Scoliosis

    Spine Cor makes it sound like you could just put the brace on and walk from here to Mexico and back, take the brace off and you'd be straighter.....which just isn't possible by any known understanding of the condition or neuro-physiology.

    But I digress......please continue......

    Last edited by DrStitzel; 07-13-2010 at 08:50 PM.

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