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Thread: Schroth 2010

  1. #21
    Registered Member Reira's Avatar
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    Hi Clayton,

    Again with "results first" cart before the horse approach.......define "works"......reduces the cobb angles (symptom of the condition)? Well then spinal fusion surgery "works"......and we all agree that isn't a cure. "Works" has to alter the natural course of the condition, which implies it is treating the orginial insult that lead to the cascade of events known as the vicious cycle (Stokes, 1996). Bracing doesn't alter the natural course of the condition, because it is working under the premise that there is something wrong with the spine itself......which there isn't in probably 99% of AIS cases.
    Then what should we do? Should I kick my brace into a rubbish bin? Should I stop doing Schroth? I donīt have the possibility to fly to the US and undergo Clear-Treatment. All I know is, that with my presently therapy my scoliosis doesnīt cause pain, doesnīt get worse and Iīm satisfied with my quality of life. OK, there are some points Iīm not satisfied with (my decompensation of the spine), but Iīm working on it. What should I do other than what I do at the moment?! The only other possibility is surgery and to tell the truth I really am anxious about it.

    Question: What different outcome could someone expect from Clear-Treatment, he doesnīt could get from other therapy-methods??
    BTW,there are also some statements of patients which claim that Clear had worsen their condition. Maybe bracing and Schroth isnīt perfect, but apparently neither is Clear?!?

    I donīt have to read the thread about causes and progression theories, because it wouldnīt change anything. This theories are not evidenced and even if they will be evidenced some day the question is, if there is something to change the cause at all or if we will be stucked to treating the symptoms.
    I could live with it as long as my quality of life isnīt affected. Take a look on your poll, quality of life is the keyword.

    I really hope that Clear-treatment will bring some positive changes for all patients in the whole world. I could imagine that it is absolutely difficult to spread such a method. But what Katharina Schroth had managed in the early nineteen-twenties without the possibility of internet or the linke, you will manage. Again, the german clinic is open for new methods and positive suggestions.

    Best wishes, Reira


  2. #22
    Senior Member mamamax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reira View Post
    Hi mamamax,


    what do you mean with "patient orientation"? All in all that would be 3 weeks too, or not?!
    Sorry ... didn't fully understand your question up-thread. It would be 3-7 days training of the physical therapist - and 2 weeks training of the patient (patient orientation) by the newly trained PT. Come to think of it ... this is sounding a little too good to be true :-)

    Idiopathic, from the Latin meaning: we're idiots 'cause we can't figure out what's causing it (Dr. Gregory House, MD)

    bty - I'm not weird, I'm just a little multi-factorial

  3. #23
    Registered Member Reira's Avatar
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    Hi mamamax,

    Here was my patient orientation in Schroth. I received about an hour and a half of instruction on the day I was fitted with my brace. I didn't see the instructor again for 3 months. Do we see a problem with this?
    and how did this instruction start? What did you learn in this 1,5 hours? Whatīs your individual curve pattern?

    Hence, we have now a modified method with a new name. Power (or new) Schroth and a two week patient orientation (streamlined method), vs 3 weeks.
    Where did you get this information about this 2 weeks after the instruction? In Germany this new Power Schroth according to Dr. Weiß program are all in all 3 days and only on the third day you will get instructions for Schroth. I think it is comparable with your 1,5 hours instruction, nothing else.
    Furthermore it is not ...vs 3 weeks, but ...vs. 3-6 weeks. It depends on the individual situation and on the clinic-capacity.

    However, here in the US, in physical therapy departments affiliated with large hospitals, the majority of the soliotic patients seen are firstly the surgical patients for whom pain is still an issue, followed by those like myself.
    But Schroth is absolutely forbidden during the first 6 month after surgery!! Some of surgical patients may be never able to do Schroth. I met such one during my last rehabilitation. She was absolutely false in the clinic, because pain was to much. I even say Schroth is much difficulter to a surgical patient than a normal one.

    As for the German Schooled Chiropractor - I'm thinking this may be equal to the US Osteopath (also physician - like the MD) ... but I don't know. Will look forward to your input.
    No, I donīt thin so. A Osteopath is something different than a Chiropractor in Germany. But I will take a look on it on the weekend.

    Best wishes, Reira


  4. #24
    Registered Member Reira's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mamamax View Post
    Up thread there was discussion about the ancient Greek definition of scoliosis. I'm fascinated by antiquity, and how the definitions of terms change with each era. When we combine idiopathic with scoliosis, the ancient definition of idiopathic =

    From the New Latin idiopathia (primary disease), from the Greek idiopatheia, from idio-, from idios (one's own, personal) + -patheia, -pathic (feeling, suffering).



    Basically - one's own personal suffering. Together with scoliosis ... One's own personal suffering leading to (or caused by) a twisting/curving of the spine.



    Interesting. And
    way multi-factorial IMO
    In our forum there is one member, he always says it is called idiopathic scoliosis because most of the doctors either act idiotic if they see scoliosis on a x-ray or they act apathetic.


  5. #25
    Senior Member mamamax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reira View Post
    In our forum there is one member, he always says it is called idiopathic scoliosis because most of the doctors either act idiotic if they see scoliosis on a x-ray or they act apathetic.
    And we have a member in this forum who enjoys a similar thought - via signature/quote from Dr. Gregory House, MD (too bad he is a fictional TV actor - we could use him).


    Idiopathic, from the Latin meaning: we're idiots 'cause we can't figure out what's causing it (Dr. Gregory House, MD)

    bty - I'm not weird, I'm just a little multi-factorial

  6. #26
    Professional DrStitzel's Avatar
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    Hi Reira,
    I can hear and understand the frustration in your message. I'm wasn't trying to envoke an emotional responce out of you and I apologize for doing so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reira View Post
    Then what should we do? Should I kick my brace into a rubbish bin? Should I stop doing Schroth? I donīt have the possibility to fly to the US and undergo Clear-Treatment. All I know is, that with my presently therapy my scoliosis doesnīt cause pain, doesnīt get worse and Iīm satisfied with my quality of life. OK, there are some points Iīm not satisfied with (my decompensation of the spine), but Iīm working on it. What should I do other than what I do at the moment?! The only other possibility is surgery and to tell the truth I really am anxious about it.
    I understand your in a tough position and your doing the best with what you have available. Surgery certainly isn't the long-term solution, and I openly applaud your sense of urgency to do whatever you can at this point. However, there is a danger in placing hope and effort into a treatment system that doesn't have the process or application to provide even the possibly altering the natural course of the condition. While it may give you the piece of mind you desire, it probably is also setting you up for a catastrophic disappointment as well.

    The truth of the matter is that your condition may be exactly the same as it is today if you did nothing at all. We don't know and won't know in your case, but we are starting to develop the diagnostic tools and treatment methods to make it possible to alter the natural course of the condition in the future.

    Incredibly, the biggest enemy in altering the natural course of AIS is going to be a general lack of a sense of urgency and a general resistance to change. The entire mindset of scoliosis as primarily a spinal condition, early detection, early treatment, type of treatment, everything needs to be changed in terms of AIS.

    Here is a thread I wrote on that about a year ago...... http://www.fixscoliosis.com/threads/...t-be-televised

    Quote Originally Posted by Reira View Post
    Question: What different outcome could someone expect from Clear-Treatment, he doesnīt could get from other therapy-methods??
    BTW,there are also some statements of patients which claim that Clear had worsen their condition. Maybe bracing and Schroth isnīt perfect, but apparently neither is Clear?!?
    The CLEAR approach is base off the most recent understanding of spinal biomechanics and neurology......not an obselete, inaccurate, and irrelevant cobb angle system developed in 1948.

    Patient testimonials are silly and worthless in regards to treatment application or process....I'm not even going to comment on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reira View Post
    I donīt have to read the thread about causes and progression theories, because it wouldnīt change anything. This theories are not evidenced and even if they will be evidenced some day the question is, if there is something to change the cause at all or if we will be stucked to treating the symptoms.
    The more you know about the condition the more self-evident the treatment solution will become.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reira View Post
    I could live with it as long as my quality of life isnīt affected. Take a look on your poll, quality of life is the keyword.
    Quality of life is a very important criteria, no doubt, but it isn't going to lead us to a better way of treating AIS or a cure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reira View Post
    I really hope that Clear-treatment will bring some positive changes for all patients in the whole world. I could imagine that it is absolutely difficult to spread such a method. But what Katharina Schroth had managed in the early nineteen-twenties without the possibility of internet or the linke, you will manage. Again, the german clinic is open for new methods and positive suggestions.
    Be the change you want to see in the world Reira...... Drum up enough interest / support and I'll fly over to Germany and put on a seminar.


    I'm searching for the scoliosis treatment of the future!

    Toll-Free 1-866-627-3009 to schedule time/date for a free phone consult about your case.

  7. #27
    Senior Member mamamax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reira View Post
    Hi mamamax,


    and how did this instruction start? What did you learn in this 1,5 hours? Whatīs your individual curve pattern?
    Individual curvature pattern = right thoracic, left thoracolumbar. I would love to share the info I was given and compare notes with you - sent you a PM with my off forum email address :-)




    Where did you get this information about this 2 weeks after the instruction? In Germany this new Power Schroth according to Dr. Weiß program are all in all 3 days and only on the third day you will get instructions for Schroth. I think it is comparable with your 1,5 hours instruction, nothing else.
    Furthermore it is not ...vs 3 weeks, but ...vs. 3-6 weeks. It depends on the individual situation and on the clinic-capacity.
    I believe the info is in the up-thread 2010 article written by Dr. Weiss? From your description of the new Power Schroth in Germany ( three days total), well, I can see why people would be having a problem with this! Thank your for the clarification on the current in patient duration at the German Clinic.



    But Schroth is absolutely forbidden during the first 6 month after surgery!! Some of surgical patients may be never able to do Schroth. I met such one during my last rehabilitation. She was absolutely false in the clinic, because pain was to much. I even say Schroth is much difficulter to a surgical patient than a normal one.
    Yes, I do realize there is protocol involved, and so would, we presume, the Physical Therapists being trained. No? There are surgical patients for whom this would be good - and as you say, some where it would not be appropriate. The one's that can be helped, should be helped. I do know of an instructor (Physical Therapist), who is a post surgical patient - helped enormously by Schroth. There are more like her, who do not have this available to them - where appropriate, it should be available, in my opinion :-)

    Idiopathic, from the Latin meaning: we're idiots 'cause we can't figure out what's causing it (Dr. Gregory House, MD)

    bty - I'm not weird, I'm just a little multi-factorial

  8. #28
    Registered Member Reira's Avatar
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    Can you tell us more about the distinction between a German School Chiropractor - and any other chiropractor. I always find the distinction curious.
    I think, I found the difference. In Germany there are only courses available to gain insight into the whole field of chiropractic. In Germany there is no exclusive profession of an chiropractor possible. If you want to do the full program of a chiropractor you either have to be a medical doctor or an alternative practitioner. If they want to be a chiropractor they have to study additionally to their first profession in the US, GB, Canada, France or Denmark. The degree of a german course (which only lasts days or weeks) is not international accredited and serves only to apply some parts of chiropractics.

    Best wishes, Reira


  9. #29
    Registered Member Reira's Avatar
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    Hi Clayton,

    However, there is a danger in placing hope and effort into a treatment system that doesn't have the process or application to provide even the possibly altering the natural course of the condition. While it may give you the piece of mind you desire, it probably is also setting you up for a catastrophic disappointment as well.
    but why is it so essential to altering the natural course?? Isnīt it enough to getting straight and derotated, to be painless, to have no problems with scoliosis??

    The truth of the matter is that your condition may be exactly the same as it is today if you did nothing at all.
    Oh yeah, sure...

    2002: 27°
    2004: 36° (Scoliometer 12° thoracic, 4° lumbar)
    2005: 45°
    2006: 53° (Scoliometer 18° thoracolumbar)
    Do you really think, it would have stopped without intervention??
    BTW, now Iīm back to 47°, my spine is not anymore derotated, my scoliometer ist only 8° thoracic and overcorrection of 1° lumbar, I only have small pain sometimes and Iīm sure I also will get in control of my decompensation.
    I took a look on your homepage. There I could read the benefits I would get for treatment of severe scoliosis:
    - Aleviate pain
    - Increased lung capacity / more room for organs
    - More energy
    - Increased life expectancy

    --> All this things I could also achieve while doing Schroth or/and bracing. So whereīs the difference??

    Patient testimonials are silly and worthless in regards to treatment application or process
    Do you think, patients have the same opinion? I donīt think so, because I as a patient find it more important to hear or read experiences from other patients. I donīt give anything to studies, as long as there are enough positive experiences. If you read negative responses first this would lead to a first (negative) impression. Iīm sure you wouldnīt find it silly if you read a positive comment.

    Drum up enough interest / support and I'll fly over to Germany and put on a seminar.
    I could give you contact details of the contact persons in the german clinic. I donīt know enough about Clear to do advertising and arouse interest.

    Best wishes, Reira


  10. #30
    Senior Member mamamax's Avatar
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    I nominate the above for post of the month. Good Job Reira! :-)

    Idiopathic, from the Latin meaning: we're idiots 'cause we can't figure out what's causing it (Dr. Gregory House, MD)

    bty - I'm not weird, I'm just a little multi-factorial


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