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Thread: Schroth 2010

  1. #11
    Senior Member mamamax's Avatar
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    Maybe a good point Dr. Stitzel - or maybe not - how do we know for certain? We could argue the mechanics of the brace ad nausium, but will get nowhere without some input from Dr. Rivard, or without some published material outlining the finite mechanics of the brace which seems not to exist for the general public.

    Here's what I know, or think I know from my admitted limited experience: I used the brace for a little over a year without Schroth exercises, even though they were recommended, out of brace, for me. The reason I didn't do those exercises is that patient orientation was woefully lacking, and without confidence in the use of them I elected not to do them because: I know that wrong exercise (or exercise done wrong), can be problematic, and even encourage progression. So using the brace only, without Schroth has been successful for me in terms of dramatically reduced pain levels, small cobb angle improvement, and significant postural rehabilitation.

    On the adolescent side - there are studies by experienced providers which indicate clinical improvement using this brace. Then there are studies showing that the brace does no good, and may even be harmful (in terms of progression). The later, with all due respect, done by two who were not a fully certified or experienced providers, one of whom possibly had a competing interest in that they either had at the time, or were working toward, their own brace design. As a result of what Spinecor corporation may justifiably see as a faulty study - they published a rather scathing public open letter addressing such things. Ignoring the fact that they themselves, sold braces to people, for studies, which were not fully certified or experienced in the application of this brace. The studies done by the providers not fully certified, or experienced have been the ones picked up by certain insurance companies in order to justify denial of Spinecor treatment (the prospective patient suffers). One would expect that if Spinecor's rebuttal to these faulty studies were false, law suit would follow - which it has not.

    Some experienced Spinecor providers have been trained and certified in Schroth through the clinic in Germany. And why wouldn't Schroth make sense as an adjunct exercise program? If we go back to the current FAQs published by Spinecor http://www.spinecorporation.com/Engl.../faq.htm#faq15 here is what they categorically state about Physical Therapy (hello this is Schroth, it is Physical Therapy specific to scoliosis):
    Physical therapy does have the potential to;
    1. Help mobilize the spine
    2. Reinforce the corrective movement
    3. Help with active self correction
    4. Help consolidate the corrective movement and gain a neuromuscular integration (stabilizing the curve).
    5. Speed up correction.
    Items 1-4 are what Schroth does. So why not use it, out of brace, as an exercise to compliment treatment? I'm seeing Spinecor talk from both sides of their neck, so to speak.

    I'll tell you what I think. I think from the moment a faulty study was completed, and recognized, and addressed (without legal ramification), that a battle began, and that since Spinecor was correct in their public statement - maybe now it is a game of get even? So the most recognized expert in the delivery of Schroth (who is not retired and still in practice - and for whom I have enormous respect for), bashes Spinecor and - Spinecor bashes Schroth. Meanwhile Schroth didn't mind taking the money of those offering Spinecor, and certifying them in the Schroth method knowing full well they planned on using it in conjunction with Spinecor - over a year ago! Where was the oversight - if any was truly needed - on that?

    As a patient I am outraged by all of this and do not know who to blame most. But if we go to the source of the problem, the manufacturer is guilty as sin for selling braces to anyone not fully certified. And in addition to this, there seems no oversight in studies which may be published by those not experienced in the use of this brace. If Schroth is so contradictory to Spinecor bracing - why is Schroth certifying Spinecor providers. I smell a money game and nothing more.

    And who suffers most for this? Not Spinecor, not Schroth - but current and prospective patients. Studies done by those not experienced in treating with Spinecor have ended up being used to deny insurance coverage and thus some who may have been helped will not be helped, prospective patients are further confused by all the finger pointing, and may in fact because of the confusion, turn away from one or both methods which may have helped - current patients stand to loose confidence in treatment or provider ... and loosing confidence, is loosing most of the battle with this insidious condition, regardless of any treatment.

    I don't give a rat's ass about the game being played here, but I am more than passionate about those like myself with scoliosis who need treatments that improve quality of life - and both have been shown to do this - for both surgical (when pain remains an issue) and non surgical patients alike. And this battle stands to result in patients not receiving care that could have helped them because it is overly confusing to those trying to make a decision regarding treatment choices.

    And how do we fix this? We don't. All sides insist on being right about everything, and wrong about nothing. All sides need to take the blinders off and pony up to their responsibility in regards to patient care rather than worry about profit/loss statements, or capturing the lion's share of the market, or playing king of the hill with each other. I could go on but think my blood pressure is sufficiently raised at this point.

    End of Rant.



    Last edited by mamamax; 07-14-2010 at 01:54 AM.
    Idiopathic, from the Latin meaning: we're idiots 'cause we can't figure out what's causing it (Dr. Gregory House, MD)

    bty - I'm not weird, I'm just a little multi-factorial

  2. #12
    Registered Member Reira's Avatar
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    Hi mamamax,

    For some reason, I had the idea that training (Power/New Schroth) was 3-7 days, under Weiss instruction, and patient orientation 2 weeks.
    what do you mean with "patient orientation"? All in all that would be 3 weeks too, or not?! This is how it works in the german clinic: In the first week you are together with all beginners in one group. There you learn the anatomy of the spine, what scoliosis is, how your individual spine looks and you learn Schroth very slowly. It begins with the hip corrections, the positioning on your small rice-bags, then the basic-excercises (which you will do on a daily basis on a own but with physiotherapists around you, which will correct you. You have time for this 2X 90 min /day) and last but not least the breathing. At the end of this week you know your individual curvature and how to correct it. From week 2 on you will get sorted in special groups in which all have similar curvatures. There you do advanced excercises (2X 90 min / day), learn how you could do excercises at home with improvisated material. Additionally you will have breathin-therapy on a one to one-session, massage, one to one physiotherapy against pain and so on.

    All I know is, that no clinics may be open and do Schroth, because Asklepios (this is the corporation who bought the clinic from Mrs. Lehnert-Schroth) assigns a protection of the trademark "Schroth". For example therefore the Clinic in London may not call it "Schroth-Clinic". But I know also, that Asklepios has also clinics in the US. Maybe you should write a letter of inquiry to this corporation and ask if something is possible. Perhaps it doesnīt even occur to them that this would be a possibility.

    The initial set up would be best with surgical patients, when pain remains an issue, or with the aging population
    I donīt knwo if this would be a good idea. Surgical patients donīt do "normal" Schroth. They couldnīt do all elements of excercises and Iīm not sure if Schroth is the right therapy for such patients. Itīs even disputed in Germany. BTW I heard, surgical patients with pain are treated difficult, because the way to conservative methods is barred in many cases.
    The aging population also donīt do the normal intensive program. They could choose if they want to do a full program or only the half one.

    I know not much about the new health care insurance in the US - that is, it does not yet effect me in any way, my insurance is through the company I work for and quite adequate outside of my need for a physical therapy based method of addressing my curvature pattern in a way that would improve the quality of my life. It is possible that my insurance would pay a percentage of the cost of the Wisconsin Clinic (if the Wisconsin Clinic accepted my insurance), and if my physician would write a prescription for it. The travel, cost of lodging, and time away from work however would make this prohibitive for me.
    That sounds really complicated. In Germany we also have some cases who doesnīt fit in the system. Normally not health insurance pays for a in-patien-rehabilitation, but annuity insurance.

    Can you tell us more about the distinction between a German School Chiropractor - and any other chiropractor. I always find the distinction curious.
    Sorry, I donīt know anything about it. But I can look, if I could find some information. I promise I will do it on the weekend or next week, because my next few days are really busy (appointments with my orthotist and orthopedic physician).

    Best wishes, Reira


  3. #13
    Registered Member Reira's Avatar
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    In the quest to promote one's own product - a common strategy is to bash the competition.
    Yes, looks like he found another bracing-system to critisize. For a long time my orthotist was in this position.

    I looked on your link and even found an orthotist in Germany for SpineCor-treatment. I never heard from him and we never have someone in our forum with a SpineCor-Brace.
    But the Spinecorporation wrote on their first page, they are the only one providing a dynamic brace!. This is not true anymore. A german orthotist also developed recently a new modificated Cheneau-Brace, which works dynamic. On the scoliosis-workshop he lectured about it and it sounded very interesting. The brace works the best, while doing activities. The children donīt have to wear it during school anymore because there they are seated (but they had do learn, how to sit corrective).

    So using the brace only, without Schroth has been successful for me in terms of dramatically reduced pain levels, small cobb angle improvement, and significant postural rehabilitation.
    In Germany there is a saying, freely translated it means: "who heals is right".
    I incidentally read about a orthotist-fair in Germany. There will be also introduced the SpineCor-Brace against pain. Perhaps it will become more known after it, but I doubt it. All manufactured braces couldnīt get implemented so far.

    here is what they categorically state about Physical Therapy (hello this is Schroth, it is Physical Therapy specific to scoliosis):
    Physical therapy does have the potential to;
    Help mobilize the spine
    Reinforce the corrective movement
    Help with active self correction
    Help consolidate the corrective movement and gain a neuromuscular integration (stabilizing the curve).
    Speed up correction.
    Items 1-4 are what Schroth does.
    One small correction : Nr. 1 is not what Schroth does. Newly in the clinic they will do specific mobilization-excercises before Schroth-Excercises, but this is not Schroth. This is done to achieve better corrections, but this correction has to be stabilized with Schroth after this mobilisation. Therefore, Schroth stabilizes not mobilizes!! For a long time any kind of mobilization was frowned upon.

    I donīt know many things about the SpineCor-Brace, so I canīt say anything to this topic.

    Best wishes, Reira


  4. #14
    Professional DrStitzel's Avatar
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    That was a quality rant Mamamax.......From one ranter to another......I'm impressed.

    Quote Originally Posted by mamamax View Post
    [COLOR=Navy]Maybe a good point Dr. Stitzel - or maybe not - how do we know for certain? We could argue the mechanics of the brace ad nausium, but will get nowhere without some input from Dr. Rivard, or without some published material outlining the finite mechanics of the brace which seems not to exist for the general public.
    Process + Application = Results. No understanding of brace mechanics necessary.....The application of artifical correction and the process of re-training the brain via spinal feedback from said artificial correction or voluntary exercise (Schroth, FITS, SEAS, Alexander Technique, ect) is neurologically incorrect.....therefore the results are doomed.

    If you not training the involuntary postural reflex arcs in the hind brain, your not training the part that runs the "body scheme" and therefore not altering the natural course of the condition........ 1 + 1 = 2......it all has to add up......simple math.......

    Here is a thread that discusses "body scheme" if anyone is unfamilar with the concept.....

    http://www.fixscoliosis.com/threads/...essive-factors


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  5. #15
    Registered Member Reira's Avatar
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    Process + Application = Results. No understanding of brace mechanics necessary.....The application of artifical correction and the process of re-training the brain via spinal feedback from said artificial correction or voluntary exercise (Schroth, FITS, SEAS, Alexander Technique, ect) is neurologically incorrect.....therefore the results are doomed.
    I wonder, why is it then, that it works in so many cases (I donīt say it works in all cases!!)???

    BTW, if you say, that the curvature or scoliosis is only a symptom of a primary neurological problem you have to redefine the "disease" because scoliosis is greek and means curvature - in this case curvature of the spine! The problem is, that only this symptom gets a treatment, but isnīt it the same in all other diseases in which the primary cause isnīt found yet (treating the symptoms)??

    Iīm sure, if this theory could be evidenced, you will get nominated for the Nobel-Prize of medicine.

    Truth be told I find it sad, that all providers of different treatments always think that only their treatment is the best and the only one to work. And which one of this providers bother to learn how other treatments work?!? I know that Mrs. Lehnert-Schroth invides many providers of different scoliosis-treatments into the clinic. Some new ideas and concepts got established into the program. Why donīt follow this method. Iīm sure all providers could learn something of each other and this would be "patient orientation".
    E.g. I think itīs brilliant that SpineCor-Providers were trained in Schroth, now they could make improvements through new ideas.

    I donīt know, but maybe if the Clear-method has enough studies, someone could send a letter of inquiry to the Schroth-Clinic. I donīt think, they would be desinterested ;-)

    Best wishes, Reira


  6. #16
    Professional DrStitzel's Avatar
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    Hi Reira,

    I love it when we have these spirited and indepth conversations....thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reira View Post
    I wonder, why is it then, that it works in so many cases (I donīt say it works in all cases!!)???
    Again with "results first" cart before the horse approach.......define "works"......reduces the cobb angles (symptom of the condition)? Well then spinal fusion surgery "works"......and we all agree that isn't a cure. "Works" has to alter the natural course of the condition, which implies it is treating the orginial insult that lead to the cascade of events known as the vicious cycle (Stokes, 1996). Bracing doesn't alter the natural course of the condition, because it is working under the premise that there is something wrong with the spine itself......which there isn't in probably 99% of AIS cases.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reira View Post
    BTW, if you say, that the curvature or idiopathic scoliosis is only a symptom of a primary neurological problem you have to redefine the "disease" because scoliosis is greek and means curvature - in this case curvature of the spine!
    You'll have to go back in time and take this one up with the Greeks....I can't help they didn't get it right at the time. They also named the disease of uncontrolled cell division (cancer) after a crab, because malignant tumors had lots of projections coming out of a central body, so......???

    Quote Originally Posted by Reira View Post
    The problem is, that only this symptom gets a treatment, but isnīt it the same in all other diseases in which the primary cause isnīt found yet (treating the symptoms)??
    Have you read the thread on causes and progression theories? Virtually everyone of them site a yet-to-be-discovered neurological problem as the primary insult.......the developers of the Scolioscore seem to think so too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reira View Post
    Iīm sure, if this theory could be evidenced, you will get nominated for the Nobel-Prize of medicine.
    It will probably happen in the next 10-20 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reira View Post
    Truth be told I find it sad, that all providers of different treatments always think that only their treatment is the best and the only one to work. And which one of this providers bother to learn how other treatments work?!? I know that Mrs. Lehnert-Schroth invides many providers of different scoliosis-treatments into the clinic. Some new ideas and concepts got established into the program. Why donīt follow this method. Iīm sure all providers could learn something of each other and this would be "patient orientation".
    E.g. I think itīs brilliant that SpineCor-Providers were trained in Schroth, now they could make improvements through new ideas.

    I donīt know, but maybe if the Clear-method has enough studies, someone could send a letter of inquiry to the Schroth-Clinic. I donīt think, they would be desinterested ;-)
    Agreed, but we are working with a much different equation than Schroth right now......Our math reads....Neuro insult first, spine curvature/biomechanics symptom second.....Train the brain and the spine will follow......that is the only fore-see-able hope of altering the natural course of the condition (AKA: Cure).

    Our perspective of the condition leads to a self-evident understanding of treatment methodology and evolved a completely new system of treatment that is 100% independent of previous efforts to treat scoliosis. That makes it pretty tough to swap recipies with others.

    Best wishes, Reira[/QUOTE]

    Last edited by DrStitzel; 02-24-2011 at 02:47 PM.

    I'm searching for the scoliosis treatment of the future!

    Toll-Free 1-866-627-3009 to schedule time/date for a free phone consult about your case.

  7. #17
    Senior Member mamamax's Avatar
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    Default Patient Orientation & Clinical Application of Schroth

    Quote Originally Posted by Reira View Post
    Hi mamamax,


    what do you mean with "patient orientation"? All in all that would be 3 weeks too, or not?! This is how it works in the german clinic: In the first week you are together with all beginners in one group. There you learn the anatomy of the spine, what scoliosis is, how your individual spine looks and you learn Schroth very slowly. It begins with the hip corrections, the positioning on your small rice-bags, then the basic-excercises (which you will do on a daily basis on a own but with physiotherapists around you, which will correct you. You have time for this 2X 90 min /day) and last but not least the breathing. At the end of this week you know your individual curvature and how to correct it. From week 2 on you will get sorted in special groups in which all have similar curvatures. There you do advanced excercises (2X 90 min / day), learn how you could do excercises at home with improvisated material. Additionally you will have breathin-therapy on a one to one-session, massage, one to one physiotherapy against pain and so on.
    Hi Reira -

    "Patient orientation" would mean all that it takes to introduce a patient to a procedure. In reference to Schroth exercises this would mean the manner and length of time it takes to ensure that a patient understands the instruction. The three week introduction at the German clinic would be in total, considered patient orientation.

    Here was my patient orientation in Schroth. I received about an hour and a half of instruction on the day I was fitted with my brace. I didn't see the instructor again for 3 months. Do we see a problem with this?


    All I know is, that no clinics may be open and do Schroth, because Asklepios (this is the corporation who bought the clinic from Mrs. Lehnert-Schroth) assigns a protection of the trademark "Schroth". For example therefore the Clinic in London may not call it "Schroth-Clinic". But I know also, that Asklepios has also clinics in the US. Maybe you should write a letter of inquiry to this corporation and ask if something is possible. Perhaps it doesnīt even occur to them that this would be a possibility.
    Hence, we have now a modified method with a new name. Power (or new) Schroth and a two week patient orientation (streamlined method), vs 3 weeks.

    So, you are suggesting that a representative(s) from the German Clinic may be interested in training physical therapists in the US who are affiliated with local hospitals? I'm sure they would - and the cost may be quite prohibitive in today's economy. Though it would be a patient's dream.



    I donīt knwo if this would be a good idea. Surgical patients donīt do "normal" Schroth. They couldnīt do all elements of excercises and Iīm not sure if Schroth is the right therapy for such patients. Itīs even disputed in Germany. BTW I heard, surgical patients with pain are treated difficult, because the way to conservative methods is barred in many cases. The aging population also donīt do the normal intensive program. They could choose if they want to do a full program or only the half one.
    Again the focus, as with most therapy (the definition of therapy, covering a lot of territory) is on the younger crowd, for many reasons: there are more of them, and the big picture involves early intervention, and of course, not to be ignored - the profit is best in this group (for all therapy). Just a fact of life. However, here in the US, in physical therapy departments affiliated with large hospitals, the majority of the soliotic patients seen are firstly the surgical patients for whom pain is still an issue, followed by those like myself. There are enough such patients to justify the need in these situations. Yes, Schroth is modified for these cases - and is advertised to be of benefit - so, let's get to it I say :-)


    That sounds really complicated. In Germany we also have some cases who doesnīt fit in the system. Normally not health insurance pays for a in-patien-rehabilitation, but annuity insurance.
    Yes, the insurance is quite complex over here. It is big business. Another future rant of mine - sometime. Don't get me wrong - it can also be quite good .. but for things like this, the machine is a barrier making Schroth, for most, an out of pocket expense. And, something most of us in this country simply cannot afford.


    Sorry, I donīt know anything about it. But I can look, if I could find some information. I promise I will do it on the weekend or next week, because my next few days are really busy (appointments with my orthotist and orthopedic physician).
    Best wishes in the days ahead! As for the German Schooled Chiropractor - I'm thinking this may be equal to the US Osteopath (also physician - like the MD) ... but I don't know. Will look forward to your input.

    As always, best wishes to you also Reira

    Last edited by mamamax; 07-14-2010 at 11:44 PM.
    Idiopathic, from the Latin meaning: we're idiots 'cause we can't figure out what's causing it (Dr. Gregory House, MD)

    bty - I'm not weird, I'm just a little multi-factorial

  8. #18
    Senior Member mamamax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reira View Post
    One small correction : Nr. 1 is not what Schroth does. Newly in the clinic they will do specific mobilization-excercises before Schroth-Excercises, but this is not Schroth. This is done to achieve better corrections, but this correction has to be stabilized with Schroth after this mobilisation. Therefore, Schroth stabilizes not mobilizes!! For a long time any kind of mobilization was frowned upon.
    Yes, exactly - what you said about Schroth - and this is what I believe Spinecor corporation means in their use of the word based on my experience in wearing it which in my case both lengthens and stabilizes. The term "mobilization" means many things depending on the context in which it is used. For certain in this case, it is not the commonly thought of definition that involves deep tissue massage. So, while I *think* I know what they mean by the use of the term - can't know for certain as they do not define their usage of it. I'd write to them and ask, but they have never answered my requests for information in the past, and I have no reason to think that they would now. Oh God, I sense another rant coming on - will try to control myself :-) For certain, definition of terms is something that should be worked on across the board in all methods - believe SOSORT is trying to do some work on that. Of course everyone would have to agree on things - and that makes it all quite interesting.

    I donīt know many things about the SpineCor-Brace, so I canīt say anything to this topic.
    Why not? Seems some others, who are in a similar position - are suddenly - experts ;-)

    Best wishes to you too![/QUOTE]

    Idiopathic, from the Latin meaning: we're idiots 'cause we can't figure out what's causing it (Dr. Gregory House, MD)

    bty - I'm not weird, I'm just a little multi-factorial

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    Senior Member mamamax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrStitzel View Post
    That was a quality rant Mamamax.......From one ranter to another......I'm impressed.
    Thanks - I've been known to have my moments ;-)

    If you not training the involuntary postural reflex arcs in the hind brain, your not training the part that runs the "body scheme" and therefore not altering the natural course of the condition[/U]........ 1 + 1 = 2......it all has to add up......simple math.......
    Will have to get back to you on that ... so far, sounds like there is something wrong with my brain's ass (hind brain) ... pondering that!

    Idiopathic, from the Latin meaning: we're idiots 'cause we can't figure out what's causing it (Dr. Gregory House, MD)

    bty - I'm not weird, I'm just a little multi-factorial

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    Default idiopathia + skolios

    Up thread there was discussion about the ancient Greek definition of scoliosis. I'm fascinated by antiquity, and how the definitions of terms change with each era. When we combine idiopathic with scoliosis, the ancient definition of idiopathic =

    From the New Latin idiopathia (primary disease), from the Greek idiopatheia, from idio-, from idios (one's own, personal) + -patheia, -pathic (feeling, suffering).



    Basically - one's own personal suffering. Together with scoliosis ... One's own personal suffering leading to (or caused by) a twisting/curving of the spine.



    Interesting. And
    way multi-factorial IMO

    Last edited by mamamax; 07-15-2010 at 01:02 AM.
    Idiopathic, from the Latin meaning: we're idiots 'cause we can't figure out what's causing it (Dr. Gregory House, MD)

    bty - I'm not weird, I'm just a little multi-factorial


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